johngleeson wrote:PeterBale wrote:johngleeson wrote:A UNIQUE 'BRASS BAND'..BUT WAS IT BRITAIN'S FIRST? (1832).
(I wonder if it was indeed the first 'total' brass band in this country?Any forum members who knows their brass band history...over to you).
Historical details can be difficult to track down, but it certainly must have been one of the first all-brass combinations. Trevor Herbert, in his "The brass band movement in the 19th & 20th centuries" refers to all-brass bands being in existence "from the 1830's". One of the earliest, the Cyfarthfa Band from Merthyr Tydfil, was founded in 1838, and it was in 1844 that the Distin family were featured in a London concert playing their newly-acquired saxhorns..
Pete...mention of the Cyfarthfa Band jogged my memory as to where i'd seen a post on C.G. French horn player Ralph Livesey (as noted on this page,post 5).
It seems that Ralph Livesey was the younger son of Cyfarthfa Band's leader,Ralph Livesey Snr.In one article (also penned by Trevor Herbert)..it states:"...another (Ralph) was French horn soloist with the Coldstream Guards,and was also a member of the Italian Opera and the Lyceum Orchestra."
johngleeson wrote:johngleeson wrote:THREE GENERATIONS OF COLDSTREAM MUSICIANS UPDATED.
Thanks to an e-Mail received from a family member to me, we can now update the information on three generations of the Horne family, who, it seems, can now boast close to a century of service with the Coldstream Guards' band, commencing in the 1790's and ending in the 1880's.
An additional generation is supplied by James Horne senior. We had not noted his involvement with the band before, so here are his National Archive details :-
Royal Hospital Chelsea : Soldier's Service Documents WO97/179/67.
JAMES HORN alias JAMES HORNE. Born BELLIE, Banffshire. Served in 2nd Foot Guards; 1st Foot Regiment; Northern Fencibles. Discharged aged 53.
Date : 1816.
The families records show him to have been born circa 1761, rather than the 1763 the record shows. I checked the web and the 'Northern Fencibles' were raised by the Duke of Gordon, and were disbanded in 1783. So then James Horne must have joined the 1st Foot (Royal Scots), the oldest of all British regiments and senior regiment of the line. He must have then joined the Coldstream in the late 1790's, as by 1803 his son, James William Horne, had been born in St. Margaret's Parish, Westminster. Here are his N.A. records :-
Royal Hospital Chelsea : Soldier's Service Documents WO97/179/68.
JAMES HORN. Born ST. MARGARET'S, London and Middlesex. Served in 2nd Foot Guards. Discharged aged 47
As can be seen James Horn(e) joined the Coldstream band aged just 8 years old. I noted him as being a French horn player in Charles Godfrey's ' Surrey Gardens ' band in 1839. Given that he was a French horn player, there is a very high probability that his father was too.
James Horne senior left the Coldstream band in 1816, according to his family's history " a broken man." Quite a few Coldstream band members left in 1816 following the band's six month stay in Paris following Waterloo....could this have something to do with that family legend ?
Broken or not, he lived another 30 years, his death being recorded in St. Margaret's Parish, Westminster, in July, 1846, at the ripe old age of 85.
Back on page 124, post 2 of this topic is noted the census results for James William Horne. On this post I found out that his son, William Francis Horne, became the Coldstream principal oboe from the 1860's to the 1880's, and I noted that W.F. Horne had been placed in the Royal Military Asylum, and was shown there in the 1851 census aged 9. I assumed this to be the first instance thus found of a father sending his son there, but I was wrong. Thanks to the family's research, we can now reveal how William Francis Horne came to be in the R.M.A. James William Horne died in 1850. Here is his burial record :-
Burials in the Parish of St Mary, Lambeth, in the County of Surrey in the Year 1850.
Name: James William Horne.
Abode: 40 New Street, Vauxhall.
When Buried: October 6th, 1850.
So that is why William Francis Horne was sent to the R.M.A. It also explains why, when he had descended from a family of French horn players, he ended up on the equally difficult-but-different instrument the oboe.
William Francis Horne served in the Coldstream band until the late 1880's. A death record exists for a William Francis Horne in Lambeth, 1910. This is more than likely him.
The above research therefore details a near-continuous family association with the Coldstream Guards' band stretching from the 1790's to the late 1880's....something of a record for longevity, as even the Godfreys could only manage 1813 to 1880.
It's a bit more band history duly filled in, though.
MORE INFORMATION FOUND ON JAMES HORN SENIOR.
The above piece was posted back on page 135 of this topic, and it suggested that this family had given service to the Coldstream band from the 1790's on. Having tracked down James Horn seniors service record it reveals that he was one of the first British players to join the band when still led by C.F. Eley, as it seems he replaced one of the German musicians in 1789 when that poor lad died. Here are parts of his records :-
HIS MAJESTY'S COLDSTREAM REGIMENT OF FOOT GUARDS WHEREOF FIELD MARSHAL THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE IS COLONEL
JAMES HORN, Private, Born in the Parish of Bellie in the County of Banff was enlisted at the Age of Twenty Six; And hath served in the said Regiment for the space of 26 Years and 327 Days, as well as other Corps, after the Age of Eighteen.
DISCHARGED In consequence of : Having bad general health, the effects of Long Service & Age.
DESCRIPTION. JAMES HORN is 53 Years of Age, is 5 feet 8 inches in Height, Brown Hair, Grey Eyes, Fair Complexion, by Trade or Occupation a Musician.
STATEMENT OF SERVICE.
N. FENCIBLE REGIMENT : FROM : " NOT KNOWN."
1ST. FOOT : FROM 12TH MAY 1783 TO 17TH MAY 1789.
COLD'M GDS : 27TH JUNE 1789 TO 5TH NOVEMBER 1789.
COLD'M GDS : 26TH NOVEMBER 1789 TO 7TH JUNE 1816.
TOTAL SERVICE AFTER EIGHTEEN : 38 YEARS 22 DAYS.
As his name suggests.....he was a French horn player.....the German musician he replaced in the band was Johann Frederick Richter, who died on 3rd September 1789. He would probably have been too ill to be in the band before his death....so James Horn's joining the band in the June of 1789 seems to fit perfectly. I wonder what the small gap in service in the November of 1789 was all about ?
johngleeson wrote:MORE ON THE BAND'S 'TURKISH MUSIC' (1799).
Found this article in the 'Newcastle Courant' of January 12th, 1799 which directly confirms that our band's 'Turkish Music' percussionists hired themselves out to teach 'society ladies' the mystic art of playing the tambourine and cymbals allied to the associated 'moves' and 'poses'. Here it is :-
NEWCASTLE COURANT JANUARY 12TH 1799.
" Fashionable caprice has found out another novelty necessary to the complete accomplishment of the female character; it is no other than that all women of taste should scientifically be taught the use of those delicate instruments called cymbals. The Duke of York's military blacks are the personages from whom lessons are received; and it is now the height of fashion for a lady to be able to accompany the dances of an evening with the clangour of the soul-inspiring cymbals."
To back the above newspaper article up i've found a print entitled " Savoyards of Fashion - or the musical mania of 1799 " . It's one of those satirical cartoons that were popular in the Georgian era - and shows four 'society ladies' playing the tambourine, triangle, and cymbals. Given the above evidence we can now say this peculiar fashion must have peaked at around the 1799-mark.....and it was our band that provided the tutors for it.
johngleeson wrote:THE COLDSTREAM BAND PERSONNEL THAT PLAYED AT THE NEW YORK WORLD'S FAIR (1939).
I managed to unearth the passenger list for the " Aquitania " liner that brought our band back from the New York World's Fair in 1939. Unfortunately, the typed out list is very badly faded (wouldn't you know it)....so I made a best attempt to decipher it. My apologies if I have missed any names out or spelled them incorrectly. Each band member's age is given in the brackets. So here goes :-
SOUTHAMPTON 6TH JUNE, 1939. CUNARD WHITE STAR LINER AQUITANIA 20,800 TONS.
H.M. COLDSTREAM GUARDS' BAND WELLINGTON BARRACKS.
James C. Windram (53) Address: Staff Officer's Quarters, Regent's Park.
Olive Windram (53).
Joseph Armitage (26).
Charles Bailey (28).
James L. Bashford (32)
William F. Bellwood (36).
James Baldwin (38).
George Carr (36).
John H. Cosker (33).
Ernest G. Dalwood (27).
Alfred V. Donald (27).
Leonard J. Davis (35).
Herbert H. Davis ( 33).
Albert H. Drake (21).
Alfred J. Ellory (15).
Henry P. Evans (22).
Evan Evans (33).
James Fergus (29).
Albert J. Gay (33).
Edward G. Garwood (39).
Antoine G. Gache (28).
Jack Grivelle (30).
Lionel M. Goring (29).
John Hiam (43).
Gerald Harling (36).
Charles Hart (39).
Leslie B. Harris (31).
Eric A. Hoare (24).
Andrew Hewlett (33).
Joseph Hume (61).
Henry E. Kent (29).
Hebert Kent (31).
Edward Kinsman (30).
Frederick Laycock (36).
Alexander Lewis (35).
Harry F. Lockwood (32).
Albert H. Moore (23).
Alfred J. Moss (22).
Claude Mortimore (36).
Albert Mills (22).
George A. Mills (27).
Lionel V. Marks (27).
Edward Neil (36).
Arthur A. Parrett (24).
William F. Power (36).
Harry Petts (23).
Robert H. Purchase (30).
George F. Pritchard (43).
Reginald F. Read (36).
Horace W. Russell (39).
Richard H. Scrogg (29).
John A. Smith (21).
Charles R. Sargent (36).
Edward Sellers (23).
Ralph Shorten (35).
John Scott (39).
Stanley Wales (39).
James A. Whitworth (32).
Stanley W. Ware (33).
Cuthbert E. Wilkinson (26).
Frederick G. Yeo (28).
I think that totals 59 +1. The youngest to travel was flute and piccolo Jack Ellory, aged just 15 years old. The oldest,at an incredible 61 and still playing in the band was Joseph Hume, who eventually left the band in 1943 aged almost 65. It's unusual to see Duggie Drake's name down as Albert H. Drake. I'm sure some of those musicians would have gone through W.W.2 and would have still been in the band in the 1950's...as I seem to recall Jim Fergus' name being mentioned in other posts dating to that decade. Do any of the other names ( transcription errors notwithstanding ) ring any bells ?
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